Comments on: How I Learned to Shoot the Engineers and Ship the Product (by guest blogger Andy Lawrence) http://internetducttape.com/2007/04/20/shoot-the-engineers-and-ship-the-product/ blogging / programming / technology / lifehacks Tue, 02 Dec 2008 20:46:40 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=MU hourly 1 By: engtech http://internetducttape.com/2007/04/20/shoot-the-engineers-and-ship-the-product/#comment-75884 engtech Wed, 05 Sep 2007 05:45:12 +0000 http://engtech.wordpress.com/2007/04/20/shoot-the-engineers-and-ship-the-product/#comment-75884 @<a href="http://internetducttape.com/2007/04/20/shoot-the-engineers-and-ship-the-product/#comment-75369" rel="nofollow">Eidolon Night</a>: Joel Spolsky calls that "hallway usability testing" -- the idea is that you have to get your app in front of users as soon as possible to find out if your going in the right direction. http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/UsabilityTestingwithMorae.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000043.html @Eidolon Night:

Joel Spolsky calls that “hallway usability testing” — the idea is that you have to get your app in front of users as soon as possible to find out if your going in the right direction.

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/UsabilityTestingwithMorae.html
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000043.html

]]> By: Eidolon Night http://internetducttape.com/2007/04/20/shoot-the-engineers-and-ship-the-product/#comment-75369 Eidolon Night Fri, 31 Aug 2007 19:03:04 +0000 http://engtech.wordpress.com/2007/04/20/shoot-the-engineers-and-ship-the-product/#comment-75369 The last software engineer that I shadowed told me, "You're better of quickly creating a simple program that does exactly what you need than if you were to spend a long time creating a program that does way more than you need it to do." The lesson is to get version 1.0 out of the way and then add features at leisure and a little at a time. You also have to prioritize what the user wants/needs. The last software engineer that I shadowed told me, “You’re better of quickly creating a simple program that does exactly what you need than if you were to spend a long time creating a program that does way more than you need it to do.” The lesson is to get version 1.0 out of the way and then add features at leisure and a little at a time. You also have to prioritize what the user wants/needs.

]]> By: engtech http://internetducttape.com/2007/04/20/shoot-the-engineers-and-ship-the-product/#comment-74253 engtech Fri, 24 Aug 2007 03:47:07 +0000 http://engtech.wordpress.com/2007/04/20/shoot-the-engineers-and-ship-the-product/#comment-74253 @<a href="http://internetducttape.com/2007/04/20/shoot-the-engineers-and-ship-the-product/#comment-73819" rel="nofollow">Tom Stoll</a>: "The trick is to do it the right way, then tell them you did it their way and that everything worked great! Then management will smile pat themselves on the back, give themselves great big paychecks and forget your name." Sssh! That's my secret too. The art of happiness at work for me seems to be padding the jobs they need for me to get done, so that I have time to work on the jobs that really need to get done. @Tom Stoll:

“The trick is to do it the right way, then tell them you did it their way and that everything worked great! Then management will smile pat themselves on the back, give themselves great big paychecks and forget your name.”

Sssh! That’s my secret too. The art of happiness at work for me seems to be padding the jobs they need for me to get done, so that I have time to work on the jobs that really need to get done.

]]> By: Tom Stoll http://internetducttape.com/2007/04/20/shoot-the-engineers-and-ship-the-product/#comment-73819 Tom Stoll Tue, 21 Aug 2007 16:39:39 +0000 http://engtech.wordpress.com/2007/04/20/shoot-the-engineers-and-ship-the-product/#comment-73819 As an engineer who has worked both sides(hardware and software) I would have to agree that I do tend to get "lost" in software. And yes I have given a "so" answer to a client, it works doesn't it? thats what you wanted right? so you think I'm violating the x law of thermodynamics, I'm reasonable certain that I'm not. Please I would love to see you prove that I am! Id be famous! then maybe I would get a real salary with benefits. I started programming when I was 8, by the age of 12 I was published, I'm now 37 and my last job I realized that the janitor was making more money and had better benefits and better hours. The last thing I need is some client telling me that my work violates some idea he had of how and engineer does his job. I recently worked with a longtime friend, I got him a job as my boss(he's not an engineer he has a science background, but he is a great project manager) For the first few weeks of the project he followed managements directions precisely. Nothing got done. One day I said to him "You can't do it that way" He said "but thats the way I was told to do it!" "look" I said, "Do it this way and it will work" with frustration he replied, "but they told me to do it this way" My reply to this, "The trick is to do it the right way, then tell them you did it their way and that everything worked great! Then management will smile pat themselves on the back, give themselves great big paychecks and forget your name." We did it my way and thats exactly the outcome. Scientist worry about the why Engineers about the how. Scientist ask ,"Why do we get that outcome?" Engineer asks, "How do we get that outcome?" As an engineer who has worked both sides(hardware and software) I would have to agree that I do tend to get “lost” in software. And yes I have given a “so” answer to a client, it works doesn’t it? thats what you wanted right? so you think I’m violating the x law of thermodynamics, I’m reasonable certain that I’m not. Please I would love to see you prove that I am! Id be famous! then maybe I would get a real salary with benefits. I started programming when I was 8, by the age of 12 I was published, I’m now 37 and my last job I realized that the janitor was making more money and had better benefits and better hours. The last thing I need is some client telling me that my work violates some idea he had of how and engineer does his job.
I recently worked with a longtime friend, I got him a job as my boss(he’s not an engineer he has a science background, but he is a great project manager) For the first few weeks of the project he followed managements directions precisely. Nothing got done.
One day I said to him “You can’t do it that way”
He said “but thats the way I was told to do it!”
“look” I said, “Do it this way and it will work”
with frustration he replied, “but they told me to do it this way”
My reply to this, “The trick is to do it the right way, then tell them you did it their way and that everything worked great! Then management will smile pat themselves on the back, give themselves great big paychecks and forget your name.”
We did it my way and thats exactly the outcome. Scientist worry about the why Engineers about the how.
Scientist ask ,”Why do we get that outcome?” Engineer asks, “How do we get that outcome?”

]]> By: Baron VC » links for 2007-05-09 http://internetducttape.com/2007/04/20/shoot-the-engineers-and-ship-the-product/#comment-53317 Baron VC » links for 2007-05-09 Wed, 09 May 2007 20:21:22 +0000 http://engtech.wordpress.com/2007/04/20/shoot-the-engineers-and-ship-the-product/#comment-53317 [...] How I Learned to Shoot the Engineers and Ship the Product (by guest blogger Andy Lawrence) « //engt... This is really a good piece that anybody that dabbles in programming should read because we end up chasing the stupidest “requirements” sometimes. (tags: programming) [...] [...] How I Learned to Shoot the Engineers and Ship the Product (by guest blogger Andy Lawrence) « //engt… This is really a good piece that anybody that dabbles in programming should read because we end up chasing the stupidest “requirements” sometimes. (tags: programming) [...]

]]> By: John Botscharow http://internetducttape.com/2007/04/20/shoot-the-engineers-and-ship-the-product/#comment-45671 John Botscharow Sat, 28 Apr 2007 03:31:27 +0000 http://engtech.wordpress.com/2007/04/20/shoot-the-engineers-and-ship-the-product/#comment-45671 I missed the posting date. The post showed up in my tagsurfer the day after the massacre. But, I still feel comments about killing anyone, even in jest, are best avoided. We live in an age of senseless violence, where our children seem to think that killing is a valid solution to their problems. We are both educated people and it is, IMHO, up to us to force society to set higher standards for itself. Too often it seems that the standard is the lowest common denominator. I am a theologian by training and so I look at issues from a somewhat different perspective than perhaps you do. It is my contention that we Christians are missing the point of Jesus' message. He demanded a higher standard of conduct, but our supposedly Christian society, at least that is what some politicians claim we are, keeps lowering the morial standards and using their distorted Christianity as the rationale. Jesus said those who live by the sword shall die by the sword. He did not qualify that statement in any way shape or form. Violence, whether "legal" as in a war or illegal, only begets more violence. We, the hated intellectuals of the world, need to take the higher ground and show our children that there is a better way. I know your post was intended to not be taken seriously in terms of resorting to violence. I am just suggesting you think about alternative forms of humor that do not inadvertently condone the senseless violence that is so common in our society today. I am the father of three children, one of whom will be going to college in a few years, What happened at VT has me frightened for my daughter's safety. It is a sad commentary on our society that even the halls of academia are no longer a sanctuary from the insanity! I missed the posting date. The post showed up in my tagsurfer the day after the massacre. But, I still feel comments about killing anyone, even in jest, are best avoided. We live in an age of senseless violence, where our children seem to think that killing is a valid solution to their problems. We are both educated people and it is, IMHO, up to us to force society to set higher standards for itself. Too often it seems that the standard is the lowest common denominator. I am a theologian by training and so I look at issues from a somewhat different perspective than perhaps you do. It is my contention that we Christians are missing the point of Jesus’ message. He demanded a higher standard of conduct, but our supposedly Christian society, at least that is what some politicians claim we are, keeps lowering the morial standards and using their distorted Christianity as the rationale.

Jesus said those who live by the sword shall die by the sword. He did not qualify that statement in any way shape or form. Violence, whether “legal” as in a war or illegal, only begets more violence. We, the hated intellectuals of the world, need to take the higher ground and show our children that there is a better way.

I know your post was intended to not be taken seriously in terms of resorting to violence. I am just suggesting you think about alternative forms of humor that do not inadvertently condone the senseless violence that is so common in our society today. I am the father of three children, one of whom will be going to college in a few years, What happened at VT has me frightened for my daughter’s safety. It is a sad commentary on our society that even the halls of academia are no longer a sanctuary from the insanity!

]]> By: James http://internetducttape.com/2007/04/20/shoot-the-engineers-and-ship-the-product/#comment-42665 James Wed, 25 Apr 2007 00:18:51 +0000 http://engtech.wordpress.com/2007/04/20/shoot-the-engineers-and-ship-the-product/#comment-42665 Man, there are some touchy people. As a former scientist, a current software engineer, and a Virginia Tech alumnus I have to say: that was pretty funny! But to throw in my $.02 I have to disagree with the very last line: I've never seen a project fail because the engineers find it too interesting and there are too many ways to do things. True, engineers never think the project is done because they know where the flaws are, but if they're that excited it's a good, successful project. In failed ones no one understands the requirements, it's not clear what the goal is, no one has the resources to do what they're suppose to do, and morale is low. If you have to beg the engineers to stop working it's a successful project. On a failed project most of them quit half way through. Man, there are some touchy people. As a former scientist, a current software engineer, and a Virginia Tech alumnus I have to say: that was pretty funny! But to throw in my $.02 I have to disagree with the very last line: I’ve never seen a project fail because the engineers find it too interesting and there are too many ways to do things. True, engineers never think the project is done because they know where the flaws are, but if they’re that excited it’s a good, successful project. In failed ones no one understands the requirements, it’s not clear what the goal is, no one has the resources to do what they’re suppose to do, and morale is low. If you have to beg the engineers to stop working it’s a successful project. On a failed project most of them quit half way through.

]]> By: Ste http://internetducttape.com/2007/04/20/shoot-the-engineers-and-ship-the-product/#comment-41449 Ste Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:03:46 +0000 http://engtech.wordpress.com/2007/04/20/shoot-the-engineers-and-ship-the-product/#comment-41449 I have nothing particularly clever to say, good post anyway I have nothing particularly clever to say, good post anyway

]]> By: Why is software developing so hard - My Unbridled Enthusiasm http://internetducttape.com/2007/04/20/shoot-the-engineers-and-ship-the-product/#comment-41411 Why is software developing so hard - My Unbridled Enthusiasm Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:36:49 +0000 http://engtech.wordpress.com/2007/04/20/shoot-the-engineers-and-ship-the-product/#comment-41411 [...] Lawrence wrote on this blog : This is why most software projects fail. Not because the software industry is incompetent or [...] [...] Lawrence wrote on this blog : This is why most software projects fail. Not because the software industry is incompetent or [...]

]]> By: David Hutchinson http://internetducttape.com/2007/04/20/shoot-the-engineers-and-ship-the-product/#comment-41374 David Hutchinson Mon, 23 Apr 2007 16:44:46 +0000 http://engtech.wordpress.com/2007/04/20/shoot-the-engineers-and-ship-the-product/#comment-41374 Everything you say is true, except that's not why software projects fail. They fail because its best practice... Overall. Individually projects may be screw-ups or may not, but that's not the point, approx 2 trillion dollars will be spent on IT this year, I *think* 40% of that is software development (the 40% is from memory so not so sure), statistically that is a lot of projects. Currently 15% of projects fail (see chaos report), which is better than it used to be at 25%. However it costs, say 10 times more to completely work out everything you need to know about a project to guarantee success, or abort before starting. This is what the good folks over on the NASA space shuttle project do, because of the lives and money at stake. All safety critical projects are run this way. If this is the result you want you get 10% of the working projects per year (and they take many times longer), instead of 85% of the projects. Bizarely and unintuitively what we do now is best practice. (I have an article I started about this some weeks ago, unfortunatly real life stepped in, so I haven't finished it.) Everything you say is true, except that’s not why software projects fail.

They fail because its best practice… Overall.

Individually projects may be screw-ups or may not, but that’s not the point, approx 2 trillion dollars will be spent on IT this year, I *think* 40% of that is software development (the 40% is from memory so not so sure), statistically that is a lot of projects.

Currently 15% of projects fail (see chaos report), which is better than it used to be at 25%.

However it costs, say 10 times more to completely work out everything you need to know about a project to guarantee success, or abort before starting.

This is what the good folks over on the NASA space shuttle project do, because of the lives and money at stake. All safety critical projects are run this way.

If this is the result you want you get 10% of the working projects per year (and they take many times longer), instead of 85% of the projects.

Bizarely and unintuitively what we do now is best practice.

(I have an article I started about this some weeks ago, unfortunatly real life stepped in, so I haven’t finished it.)

]]> By: Stephen http://internetducttape.com/2007/04/20/shoot-the-engineers-and-ship-the-product/#comment-41362 Stephen Mon, 23 Apr 2007 16:02:40 +0000 http://engtech.wordpress.com/2007/04/20/shoot-the-engineers-and-ship-the-product/#comment-41362 Maybe, because i don't immerse myself in the news, but i find absolutely nothing offensive here. What i do find offensive, is that for years and years the US flag has been flying at half mast. That means it can't be lowered. We didn't fly at half mast for Ford - it was already there. That's just disrespectful. I'm glad Ford was Republican. I have a child young enough that he will be shocked when it starts being flow full mast. I don't expect that until, what, 2009? I disagree that most software projects fail because they are interesting. It makes for a good story. Most software projects die for one of three main reasons. First, the customer may change their mind on what they want, or add requirements endlessly. This can be fixed by frequent deployment. Second, some large projects end up with some hard to find flaw, and deployment doesn't happen because it can't make it through testing. This can usually be fixed by frequent deployment. Often, a software project fails simply because the contractor underbid by a factor of two or three. They wouldn't get the contract if they didn't underbid. This can be fixed by having the customer estimate the project. You do that by having a programmer do the estimate who won't be on the development team, and then (and this is key), listen to this programmer. Once in a long while a big software project will fail because it's really hard. In 30 years, i've experienced this just once. When i, or most of my software peers, see that, "oh, the customer probably wants this other thing", we don't just launch into it. We view it as a change of requirements, and discuss the implications with the customer. Sometimes it gets implemented. Sometimes it goes into an enhancements phase. Sometimes it's dropped. Only if the change is so small that the schedule is not impacted does it go in without comment. And this minor additional discipline does not make the work any less fun. There's an infinite amount of work to do - it doesn't all have to be done now. All this said, given an arbitrary deadline, there is a time spent vs. quality of implementation tradeoff. The customer is generally blissfully unaware of this tradeoff. Well, it's hard to measure, isn't it? Maybe, because i don’t immerse myself in the news, but i find absolutely nothing offensive here. What i do find offensive, is that for years and years the US flag has been flying at half mast. That means it can’t be lowered. We didn’t fly at half mast for Ford - it was already there. That’s just disrespectful. I’m glad Ford was Republican. I have a child young enough that he will be shocked when it starts being flow full mast. I don’t expect that until, what, 2009?

I disagree that most software projects fail because they are interesting. It makes for a good story. Most software projects die for one of three main reasons. First, the customer may change their mind on what they want, or add requirements endlessly. This can be fixed by frequent deployment. Second, some large projects end up with some hard to find flaw, and deployment doesn’t happen because it can’t make it through testing. This can usually be fixed by frequent deployment. Often, a software project fails simply because the contractor underbid by a factor of two or three. They wouldn’t get the contract if they didn’t underbid. This can be fixed by having the customer estimate the project. You do that by having a programmer do the estimate who won’t be on the development team, and then (and this is key), listen to this programmer. Once in a long while a big software project will fail because it’s really hard. In 30 years, i’ve experienced this just once.

When i, or most of my software peers, see that, “oh, the customer probably wants this other thing”, we don’t just launch into it. We view it as a change of requirements, and discuss the implications with the customer. Sometimes it gets implemented. Sometimes it goes into an enhancements phase. Sometimes it’s dropped. Only if the change is so small that the schedule is not impacted does it go in without comment. And this minor additional discipline does not make the work any less fun. There’s an infinite amount of work to do - it doesn’t all have to be done now.

All this said, given an arbitrary deadline, there is a time spent vs. quality of implementation tradeoff. The customer is generally blissfully unaware of this tradeoff. Well, it’s hard to measure, isn’t it?

]]> By: engtech http://internetducttape.com/2007/04/20/shoot-the-engineers-and-ship-the-product/#comment-40436 engtech Sun, 22 Apr 2007 03:57:56 +0000 http://engtech.wordpress.com/2007/04/20/shoot-the-engineers-and-ship-the-product/#comment-40436 Interesting, <a href="http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilbert_blog/2007/04/deja_comic.html" rel="nofollow">Scott Adams of Dilbert</a> is getting hit with same "publishing in advance" problem as the title of this post. Interesting, Scott Adams of Dilbert is getting hit with same “publishing in advance” problem as the title of this post.

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